Sunday, September 18, 2005

The New O

My two cents -

I agree that it feels like I'm being lead around like I'm a kid learning how to read. And all those lines! I guess we couldn't figure out the columns by ourselves.

I think that for all they would like it to be, all it feels like is something an art director from the 80's would design (in fact, I have an old Oregonian that I kept from the 80's and it looks the same). And they abandoned it because they decided they weren't USA Today.

The O section is just all the other non hard news segments smashed into one section. I didn't see anything really new - just repackaged.

It's just okay. And for all the hype, is okay okay?

Now for my real disappointment. No change to OregonLive. That would have spoken volumes. Sure there are a few more blogs from writers and reviewers, but it would have been a great time for a makeover. I hope someone from the O or OL writes to tell me that it was in the works but they correctly backed off to give all the support they could to the Times-Picayune.

And I thank Shawn Levy (who I think is one of the best) for promoting this site as Truly vicious Portland media gossip.

Thoughts?

116 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll repeat myself here with something I posted on the preceding thread...

why is the NEW LOOK OREGONIAN so unfulfilling? the short answer is, when you keep the same people in the top spots, you tend to get the same results. want a differnt paper, get rid of sandy rowe and her crew. they keep giving readers what consultants say readers want.

I refer you back to my post (prior thread) of Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:01:48 PM


to save you time, this is what I said........

"look, the problem at the oregonian is at the editor level. look at who fills the highest ranks.

of sandy rowe and the four other people in the top editor jobs: only one was ever a real reporter. the rest of them are bureaucrats who have honed their political skills so they could move up the food chain, just like corporate types at any other big business.

many of the team leaders and assistants, i.e. mid-level managers, were lousy reporters. lots of them are asskissers. they manage up and kick down. they give sandy rowe what she wants. that is not the same thing as putting out a good newspaper.

no one has a clear vision of what the o could or should be. management lives in fear of offending a few readers publishing an edgy photo or story with real attitude. you can't make everyone happy. you need to cop an attitude and go with it. especially when your core customers are dying off and 20-30 years olds aren't refilling the ranks.

no vision + no balls = a crappy paper that tries to get by with a glossy marketing makeover. high definition? high concept is more like it."

i don't think the paper will get any better unless the top management is replaced along with half the mid-level editors.

on the other hand, i'd like to hear some constructive criticism. all i hear on this board are general comments about design, lay out and the absence of what you want.

would someone please list 5 ot 6 recent stories that reflect what you think the o did well and what kinds of stories the paper should be doing.

Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I went to Oregon Live today almost goddy with excitement to see some improvements to what I've felt for quite some time is one of the worst newspaper sites out there.

I'm so very disappointed. I saw the paper and noticed almost no change. Why even hype something that minor.

Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

please purge the spam.
what a shame jerks treat your blog as a place to shill fraudulent products.

Speaking of fraudulent advertising (hey, there's a TV news segue if I ever heard one) the O's "High Def" is so much ado about nothing.

The makeover underwhelms at every turn.

And have you seen their full spread ad for their makeover? Lots of bubble captions explaining everything they're doing differently?
Look closer.
The newspaper they feature in those ads is an actual edtion that ran MONTHS ago.

How can they be touting something NEW if they're using their OLD LAYOUT to explain it?

It's all marketing hype. I saw nothing that will change what I read. (Though it is nice to know I can immediately discard just one section (the "O") now instead of two.

Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:15:00 PM  
Blogger Ruben Bailey said...

What's the Shawn Levy ref all about? Also, it's funny I forgot all about this fantasmic new HD thing, so it just happened that today I did not retrieve my Sun. O. In fact it is STILL on my front porch. After reading the comments here, I am almost AFRAID to open it up!!

Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:29:00 PM  
Blogger Betsy said...

I am still trying to figure out what they meant by 'reader-interactive' or inviting us into the 'conversation.' So far, it just looks like they want me interacting with my computer more, and I do enough of that already.

I'll have more on the faux interactivity in a MetBlogs post tomorrow, I'm sure...

Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are no plans to turn Oregon Live into anything useful anytime soon. Don't expect any major changes in news coverage or content on the Web site or the newspaper. OTOH, it does mean no more of those three-day narratives by Tom Hallman.

Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:58:00 PM  
Blogger Jack Bog said...

It's one of the silliest things they've ever done -- and that is a sort of wayward achievement.

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"would have SPOKE volumes" speaks volumes about the author of this site, who has judged and labled so many other media types as idiots, losers, etc. Mike, how does it feel to join those of us who make mistakes? And yet, I won't put a label on YOU because of a single error, or based on sour grapes gossip or uninformed speculation. I'll leave that role to you and your faithful readers. Welcome to the imperfect human race.

Monday, September 19, 2005 8:25:00 AM  
Blogger PDXMediaWatcher said...

Everyone can use an editor. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Monday, September 19, 2005 8:41:00 AM  
Blogger C said...

Yawn. Nothing new, just white space + a big picture of Foxworth's head on the op/ed. The business section is still mostly PRs and the sports page is still box scores and the entertainment section is still mostly for people center their existance on watching TV.

How come Calvin & Hobbes is back? Could they bring back Andy Capp or Pogo? Those were "timeless" as well.

Gotta love the detail - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes

Monday, September 19, 2005 9:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I noticed Foxworth's big head in the op/ed page - wondered if their editorial ended up not quite long enough or something.

Monday, September 19, 2005 9:31:00 AM  
Blogger Betsy said...

My take on the 'reader-interactive' aspect of the redesign is now up at PDX MetBlogs, fyi...

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:01:00 AM  
Anonymous former viewer said...

The changes certainly don't live up to the hype, or any hype, for that matter. But it's a nice change in the paper's style. And bringing together a bunch of sections into one section (O) is a decent thing, although the O makes me thing of Oprah magazine. It allows them to better use space and have more impact.

The content is the same, however. That's a weak point -- mostly boring writing. Also, the commentary section seems to be even more irrelevant. It seemed to have more quotes from blogs than from opinion writers around the country. If I want to read what's being written on blogs, I go to the blogs.

I will also miss each letter getting a headline. That was a quick way to determine what the letter is about without having to read the letter. I found myself just skipping over the letters because nothing caught my eye.

The changes in sports appear promising with Ryan White as a columnist and if they keep the Sunday page count up and maintain the light side weekday feature.

Monday, September 19, 2005 1:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Andrew Klossner said...

Old Calvin and Hobbes strips will run for four months to promote the publication of "The Complete Calvin and Hobbes" from Andrews McMeel Publishing.

Not sure why The O can't run both C&H and Peanuts. When they bought the Oregon Journal, they published a solemn promise to keep the comic strips from both papers. That promise didn't last long. What started out as two full pages of daily comics has been diminishing for years to squeeze in non-comic entertainment matter such as puzzles.

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Cliff Pfenning said...

It's a mediocre redesign, whatever. Some new fonts, formats, blah. In sports, they've gone a lot to focusing on the writers as though they're columnists. Essentially, virtually everyone with a byline is a columnist. It's one way to compete with ESPN. Also, very bland.

But, they've got their hands full in sports with that Tribune. Man, I don't know a single Portland paper that covers Kentucky as well as the Portland Tribune. And Boise State? Their columnist, Pizza the Hutt, really ripped the Boise State football program in Friday's edition, six days after BSU played its last game in the state this year. And their sports editor, Steve "100K" Brandon, wrote an outstanding piece about a high school golfer, even though it's football season. Or volleyball season. Or soccer season. Or cross country season for high school sports.

So much of print media is this upcoming word ... blah. "As long as we get paid, and no one is going to fire us, why do we have to care?"

Monday, September 19, 2005 2:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Trib really jumped off the sales rack with its "Whatever Happened to Sam Bowie?" headline.

To be honest, I only had time to glance quickly through the Oregonian's Sunday section before heading out to the Race for the Cure, and noted the giant-breasted starlet overflowing, with perfect timing, from the top of the Living section, or whatever it's called now. Reminded me of a few years ago, when the O celebrated RFC by running a bubbly feature on how boobs were once again an essential fashion accessory.

And I scanned the Opinion section, so I could learn that they don't make legislators like Stafford Hansell any more. Great, fine, got it, the good old days were a lot better. Say, Oregonian, I can act like a cranky old fart too. Get off my lawn.

Monday, September 19, 2005 3:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They can't mess with the website without messing with all the other advance.net sites too -- that's not a local project. I suspect they have limited control over the web presence at the local level. That said, advance.net should have their corporate head examined -- their web sites are among the ugliest, least user-friendly, hardest to search, most poorly formatted ones on the web.

Monday, September 19, 2005 4:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All in all it's a small, yet annoying yawn.

Monday, September 19, 2005 7:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The criticism here is as lame as the newspaper you revile. Y'all deserve each other. Sounds to me like you don't know what you want, other than to bitch about all the things you don't like.

Monday, September 19, 2005 9:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know! Rhen lets bitch about all the bitching...now there is something to revile.

Monday, September 19, 2005 10:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You missed the point entirely, 10:20.

No one is saying what SHOULD be covered.

I'd like more investigative journalism, even if it's small stuff, like a local government type misusing a credit card or a more thourough examination of big public works projects or a closer look at how well state representatives are representing constituents. That front page Sunday story about emergency preparedness was worthy. I'd like more news that helps become an informed consumer. I want to know more about how well state and local governments are caring for the poor and elderly. And so on. That's my point.

Monday, September 19, 2005 11:09:00 PM  
Blogger C said...

"Old Calvin and Hobbes strips will run for four months to promote the publication of "The Complete Calvin and Hobbes" from Andrews McMeel Publishing."

So the comics page is fluff? Arrg my heart!

I got stuck in a traffic jam with the Trib and Sam Bowie the other day. You know what happened to Bowie? NOTHING. And it's news!

As a fellow news geek, I always get a twitter about "more investigative journalism." But cheaper and equally effective for advertisers is cleavage (leads in to the Meier & Frank bra ads where The Oregonian leads the universe, HS sports, and promos for cars sold by Ron Tonkin.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re; the O! section. Oprah called. She wants her name back. It is more bland than the formerly named Artsweek, if that's possible, & less smart. And Kristy Turnquist - tho you only write about one story a year I am NOT going to read a double-wide feature on Vinton-turned-Nike and their global animation/domination plans. I have to get to NYTImes for God's sake. With all the cool TBA & PICA stuff going on last week all they could manage was a little round-up of reviews.
That said I think that Lee Williams is a writer with talent. That is he/she doesn't write like an Oregonian writer but like someone who feels inspired and curious and is out checking things out and riding the bus. But the endless stories on Berbati's Pan a few months back prove Williams has a seriously retarded editor.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

After I got rid of the ads and assorted fluff, the Sunday O felt considerably lighter than the week before.

The lead story on housing prices is essentially a repeat of stories they've run twice in the last six months. I liked the "six lessons" part, I suppose, but the whole story was a retread.

The picture of Foxworth on today's OpEd page was an outrage. What the heck is that there for? Pure filler.

But not to be all critical, what I like:
1) The categorization of the letters to the editor
2) The overall layout of the oped page is more compelling
3) Easier to navigate "what's inside" sections and quick headline summaries on the front page

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:33:00 PM  
Anonymous news junkie said...

HD O so far is all about cosmetics....form... color...quick reads....interactive...yada yada yada.

I posted Rowe and MAWaldren that I, for one....and I think, many others, are looking for CONTENT. Get rid of some: (back fence, jon boy nicholas etc) and improve and/or add stuff....more first mover investigative; hold city/county/state govt accountable; use their bully pulpit as the dominant newspaper in the state to demand leadership; get out in front of WW and Trib; show some balls....be abit irreverent....not so freakin' PC

Sadly, as they seek new readership from younger demos, the flash and dash/color/quickness etc may be their way of attempting to attract those readers. This may force some "more mature" newspaper lovers out of their spectrum, tho I hope not.

Just gimme content.

Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the morning (when the paper comes out) I had gotten used to looking for the section I wanted by the color in the upper left-hand corner.
I'm half-awake and bleary-eyed when I first turn to the paper. It was easy to spot the red corner of the sports section.
Now I don't know where the hell it is.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:09:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of seeking new readership from younger demos, they are obviously looking for younger democrats.
More mature and more conservative readers are being shoved aside more and more as their coverage evolves.
Soon they will be as liberal as WW.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I enjoyed the Edge that ran yesterday. Nice to see someone inside the paper having fun at the expense of the new format.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Edge is one column which needs to go. A waste of space.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 6:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Edge is one column that needs to stay. I was going to say your comment is a waste of space, but then I realized it's only your opinion. And it's just as valid as is mine.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:09:00 PM  
Anonymous bill mcdonald said...

The concept of the Edge is fine. Humor has historically had a place in newspapers. The problem is with the level of talent currently turning the column out. Yesterday’s Edge included the following advice: "If someone steals your phone and hides it in their butt just go and buy a new one. If you're a thief don't hide stuff in your butt." It reads like a Beavis and Butthead bit, only without the charm. These are writers pretending to be edgy and funny, but who don’t have the comedic chops to pull it off.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the edge is nothing but puerile, distilled fark....ripped right off the web...not creative or original....wasted space. whoever owns this at the O is overpaid.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How are more mature and conservative readers being shoved aside?

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

by printing drivel like The Edge.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The very first poster has it right on. The top-heavy superstructure at the O makes it impossible for people lower in the ranks, especially reporters, to get very ambitious or creative. The mid-level editors are so concerned about impressing the top managers themselves they can't bear to let anyone else's ideas filter up past them.

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Completely apropos of nothing, did anyone see Michael Stoops on the Daily Show Tuesday night? Flashbacks! I'm having flashbacks!

Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree. The Edge is a complete waste of space and anything but edgy. I believe the problem is with the top dogs at the O, who think the Edge is a symbol of hipness and cool. It's as stale as a year-old bagel. Unoriginal and written for 14-year-olds. Improve it or lose it, I say.

Which brings up an interesting point about the O. There is nothing funny about it. No writing there with any humor, aside from an occasional Sarasohn column.

Can't they find at least one columnist who's either clever or catty or both?

Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:55:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know this is a very wide paint brush but I tend to link "mature" and "conservative" people together because older people with more life experience seem to become more conservative as they age.
This shows up in voting trends.
Little things in the "O" tend to demonstrate its constant move toward those younger and more liberal readers. Examples, Ohman as a political cartoonist who is to the left to the point of showing hatred to the right. Running "Doonesbury" on the comics page instead of on the editorial page and refusing to run cartoons like B.C. that have a more conservative point of view.
The support of left leaning politicians and their views speaks for itself.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to 3:08am:
This is a blue state, get over it. And whatever your source for your half-baked idea that if you're older, you're more conservative, it and you are wrong, at least around these parts.
Anybody who thinks the O is liberal is so far to the right, he's driving NASCAR in England.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Big O should come with a box of crayons now that they are adopting the style of "My Weekly Reader." I didn't think it was possible to dumb down the O, but they have accomplished the impossible.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree that the Sunday redesign may be more hype than substance. But don't confuse the redesign's "hi-def" advertising campaign for the initiative to do something about OLive and to make podcasting, blogging and other interactive additions. The public editor wrote about that during the summer, and his committee is continuing to work on those things on a timetable that has nothing to do with the ad campaign or the Sunday redesign.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The O is isn't the only thing getting dumbed down. Listenting to fairly new OPB moring host is like having a double dose of Prozac in your coffee. And like, she's an uptalker? And stumbles over words with more than two syllables sometimes? And so, before I give any more $$ to OPB I'd like to see them let the listeners vote on who will be their next radio host, because this voice - although I'm sure it belongs to a nice person - is way too disruptive and perky for any rain-loving Oregonian. Since OPB is "listener supported" how about giving the listeners a say in who they listen to? Live broadcast auditions or something..

Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Will this site ever become interesting again?

Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Will you ever become interesting?

Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd give my left you-know-what for that OPB morning job, despite the pay cut.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And while we're making glancing references to the Trib, has anyone noticed its new look? That is, a front page with TWO stories, one of them usually a sports story, the other probably yet another anti-Walmart piece by Jim Redden. Let's see: no business news, and sports coverage that spills into the (very, very thin) news section. It's a concept, all right.
Let us not forget another trend for the Clackamas County, oops, Portland paper: the Trib has just one staff reporter who's a woman. They could have upped the ratio when they hired someone to replace Ben Jacklet--who left for another gig--but they didn't.

Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re the OPB announcer comments from anonymous: learn to spell, bozo, before you criticize.

Friday, September 23, 2005 12:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"They could have upped the ratio when they hired someone to replace Ben Jacklet--who left for another gig--but they didn't."

Plus, quality-wise, good luck to them getting someone as good as Jacklet. One of Portland's best reporters. A good publication doesn't let someone like that leave.

Friday, September 23, 2005 9:55:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Trib is such a non-factor. Hsa no one noticed that it's a corpse?

Friday, September 23, 2005 8:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

EJC: Users to take charge of BBC website

BBC News Online is to allow unedited reader comments to be posted live for the first time in a raft of major developments to its website. The BBC says it receives more than 6,000 reader comments on a typical day but only around one in 10 is published because every offering currently has to be individually approved before publication.

The new system, which is basically a talkboard, will launch on October 10. The most contentious subjects will still be moderated, but otherwise the BBC will rely upon other users to report problems such as unacceptable comments.

Users will also vote on the most interesting comments posted and these will be given greater prominence, with some appearing on news pages. "This system will have a profound effect on our journalism and will change our relationship with our users," [BBC producer Daniel] Mermelstein said.


When will BBC go Wiki all the way and permit readers to EDIT them?

Source: media.guardian.co.uk - Media Guardian

Friday, September 23, 2005 9:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding a series of Oregonian complaints:
I like the Calvin and Hobbes re-runs if only to demonstrate that the spiky-haired kid does more than piss on Chevy. Or Ford.

The O! probably needs a few weeks to shake out...looks like it was put together well in advance.

I thought the TBA coverage was dogged...how many people attended events? How many people read performance art reviews? If you feed it to them...they scrape it off the plates into the trash.

Sure, that was a LONG Laika piece. So, one in-depth piece each week for the section? In lieu of a Portland Times Magazine, fine. That sounds good.
I think that writing in sections like inPortland shows a lot of promise, and shows that many of their reporters can go the hack when given the greenlight. Maybe they are not the greatest writers in the country (I don't know that...I'm just allowing for it), but the paper hires reporters first...five years daily experience minimum is what I hear, not an MFA.

A lot of news is just boring. Health care, Measure 37, municipal government...policy and programs bore to death. But either someone reports the developments along the way, or you sit back and wait for the expose' when the whole thing blows so you can say how did this happen? Entertainment and crisis...that's what people want. The public service facet of a newspaper is to report it before it gets to that point.

Investigative news is great, but to cry for penny-ante gotchas in lieu of solid reporting, explanation of issues, etc. is a mistake. That's what WW is for.

Changes to Business...wait and see, but a welcome respite from the yawning nothingness from before. Homes and Gardens? Very useful, as it turns out. FoodDay...finally a fresh pack pickling recipe...but can I pickle anything besides pickling cucumbers? Travel/Destinations...the local focus is much improved. Living is tough, because there is so much competition from other outlets for what it is trying to report. Metro...the zone reports are a killer. Worse than a school board meeting. Scraped in the trash. A&E...I love it. Grown to appreciate Chelsea Cain's column, and the culture comic.

Yeah, so it came out a week ago. Old news I guess.

RE: the Trib: I love the Kentucky coverage, and I thought the Sam Bowie piece was great. But where is "Dinner Bell" Mel Turpin? I am assuming that the KY triage of stories was to validate the travel costs for the Louisville game. I doubt they are hiring to replace anyone at this point.

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